Nepal Now: On the Move
We're talking with the people migrating from, to, and within this Himalayan country located between China and India. You'll hear from a wide range of Nepali men and women who have chosen to leave the country for better work or education opportunities. Their stories will help you understand what drives people — in Nepal and worldwide — to mortgage their property or borrow huge sums of money to go abroad, often leaving their loved ones behind.
Despite many predictions, migration from Nepal has not slowed in recent years, except briefly during the height of the Covid-19 pandemic. About 1 million Nepalis leave every year to work at jobs outside the country. Tens of thousands go abroad to study. Far fewer return to Nepal to settle. The money ('remittances') that workers send home to their families accounts for 25% of the country's GDP, but migration impacts Nepal in many other ways. We'll be learning from migrants, experts and others about the many cultural, social, economic and political impacts of migration.
Your host is Marty Logan, a Canadian journalist who has lived in Nepal's capital Kathmandu off and on since 2005. Marty started the show in 2020 as Nepal Now.
Nepal Now: On the Move
No-cost, or low-cost, labour migration is not just a dream
Khakendra Khatri paid 7 lakh or 700,000 Nepali rupees (about 5,000 USD) for a job in Russia, but soon after arriving he realized that he was being sent to the front line of the Russia-Ukraine war. Desperate, he bribed a commander, and then escaped by walking through a forest overnight with a group of other trafficked Nepalis.
Needing work to feed her children, Sushma found a recruiter to send her to join her aunt working in Kuwait but got sick and returned to Nepal after three months. The recruiter’s calls began soon after she returned, demanding that she pay him more than 3 lakh. Both Khakendra and Sushma filed reports with police, and they, and their families, are now deep in debt.
Welcome to Nepal Now: On the Move. My name is Marty Logan. This is the podcast that talks to some of the hundreds of thousands of people migrating from — and sometimes to — this small country surrounded by global giants China and India. Months later we reach out again to find out if reality in their new, temporary, home is meeting expectations. Occasionally we call in an expert to try and better understand all of this movement.
The stories of Khakendra and Sushma, which you might remember from earlier episodes, make the idea of ‘fee-free’ migration sound like a dream. But it’s not. Today we're speaking with Upasana Khadka, a migration expert who is working on both no-cost and low-cost migration, which do both actually happen.
This chat opened my eyes to how labour migration from Nepal is intertwined with global events, such as criticism of forced labour in countries including Malaysia. Upasana, who founded Migration Lab in Kathmandu, also highlights what is becoming a theme in this podcast: the positive aspects of migration.
Thanks again to Upasana Khadka for coming on the show. You wouldn't have guessed it, but this is the first time she has overcome her nerves to speak on a podcast, so I feel honored that she chose Nepal Now. I want to give another shout-out, to Prem Awasthi. He was the first guest of Nepal Now in 2024 when we shifted our focus to migration, and was also the first listener to subscribe to the show.
If you're curious about subscribing, click on the Support the Show link under Resources in the show notes, wherever you're listening to this. There you can choose from various amounts of monthly support starting at three dollars. The money will go first to paying our costs for hosting and editing the show.
Resources
Tricked into going to Russia, Khakendra fled before reaching the front lines
Three months in Kuwait: The story of migrant worker Sushma
Other Upasana Khadka articles in Nepali Times
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Music by audionautix.com.
Thank you to Himal Media in Patan Dhoka for the use of their studio.
We seldom talk about who are the employers that are hiring our workers, right? And I think that's a discussion that needs to happen more, because not all employers are the same. There are responsible employers.
Marty:Hi, everyone. Khakendra Khatri paid 7 lakh, or 700, 000 Nepali rupees, about 5, 000 US dollars, for a job in Russia. But soon after arriving, he realized that he was being sent to the front line of the Russia-Ukraine war. Desperate, he bribed a commander and then escaped by walking through a forest overnight with a group of other trafficked Nepalis. Needing work to feed her children, Sushma found a recruiter to send her to join her aunt working in Kuwait, but got sick and returned to Nepal after three months. The recruiter's calls began soon after she returned, demanding that she pay him more than three lakh. Both Khakendra and Sushma filed reports with police and they, and their families, are now deep in debt. Welcome to Nepal Now: On The Move. My name is Marty Logan. This is the podcast that talks to some of the hundreds of thousands of people migrating from, and sometimes to, this small country surrounded by global giants China and India. Months later, we reach out again to find out if reality in their new temporary home is meeting expectations. Occasionally we call in an expert to try and better understand all of this movement. The stories of Khakendra and Sushma, which you might remember from earlier episodes, make the idea of fee-free migration sound like a dream, but it's not. Today we're speaking with Upasana Khadka, a migration expert who is working on both no cost and low cost migration, which do both actually happen. This chat opened my eyes to how labour migration from Nepal is intertwined with global events such as criticism of forced labour in countries including Malaysia. Upasana, who founded Migration Lab in Kathmandu, also highlights what is becoming a theme in this podcast the positive aspects of migration. Please listen now to my chat with Upasana Khadka. We are here today to talk about what is known as fee-free migration, where the worker is not paying a huge recruitment fee to go overseas and work. But before we get into that, tell me about yourself, where you were born, where you went to school.
Upasana:Sure. I was born and raised in Kathmandu, and I went to the US after my high school. I did my bachelor's in math and economics at Reed College, worked in D. C. at the International Development Group for a few years, and then did my master's in public administration and international development at Harvard University's Kennedy School. That's where I, uh, got introduced to migration, and I've been working on migration issues since then at various organizations, including the World Bank, Nepal's Ministry of Labour, and, uh, Human Rights Watch. I also write for the Nepali Times, and now I run Migration Lab, a startup that aims to make migration outcomes better for workers and their families.
Marty:I think maybe the best way to get into this is to talk about a migrant who has migrated using this fee-free or ethical system. And I know you've written about some of these migrants who have gone recently. So tell us the story about a worker who's gone using this ethical approach.
Upasana:Sure. A story that comes to mind is of, uh, Khadak Singh. He's from Jajarkot. Um, he's previously migrated to Malaysia and he paid 250, 000 rupees as recruitment fees. He borrowed it at 36% interest rate, and he told us that it took him a year to repay that loan, right? This time he was again hell bent on migrating after the earthquake in Jajarkot. Um, and he told us that the informal interest rates had gone up to 60%. But he, uh, got connected with an ethical recruitment drive that International Manpower Recruitment, uh, an ethical recruiter, and Migration Lab conducted as part of a corporate social responsibility initiative. And he was able to migrate for free, and that makes a huge difference, right. Because the first salary you send is not going to the money lender, but to your family to meet household needs. And there are like hundreds of others who've migrated this way. Our initiative to take recruitment drive to Jajarkot was to make migration, ethical migration, accessible to some of the most marginalized communities, right. So in the case of Jajarkot, uh, we wanted to help it with their earthquake recovery efforts. But we also took another drive to the Musahar community in, uh, Mahottari, uh, to help them, you know, get access to, uh, good migration because other alternates they have was either to migrate to India because they can't afford, uh, uh, the, the fees, or even if they do migrate to the Gulf or Malaysia, they would have had to borrow at very high interest rates.
Marty:Okay. Just to say that Musahar is a indigenous community here in Nepal. And again, just to clarify, people who are going via this ethical recruitment approach, they're doing the same kind of work. They're migrating like anyone else would migrate. It's only the process is different. The end result is they'll go to Malaysia, in this case, and do the same work that they would have normally been doing, right?
Upasana:Exactly. It puts quite the pressure on them, right. Because if they had failed the interview, which is conducted by the employer, their backup option would have been to pay 400,000 for a similar job.
Marty:Yeah, yeah. That's a huge, huge difference. People pay such great sums that, like you said, put them and their family in debt for years in some cases, right, for these jobs. So being able to go for free is just an enormous change in circumstances, I'm sure. So the, question that pops up when we talk about this no longer is the worker paying 300,000, 400,000 rupees, whatever it may be, who is then actually paying for this migration? Who is paying for their job? if I put can put it that way.
Upasana:So, recruitment from Nepal is heavily intermediated by the private sector It's recruiters that help workers find jobs overseas and they play a pretty important function, right? Because how else would a UAE-based employer find a worker from rural Nepal and vice versa? And this entails various costs. So there's airfare, visa fees. There's medical tests, and other like government-related fees, and also the service fees for the recruiters, right. And someone has to pay for these costs. Technically it's the employer that needs to pay them, as for the'employer pays' principle.
Marty:So just to be clear, the employer is in the host country, like Malaysia, like UAE, and other countries?
Upasana:But not all employers are covering the costs and fees associated with the workers recruitment. And that automatically puts the burden on migrant workers. The employers know this, the recruiters know this, but job seekers are so desperate for the jobs that they're willing to pay the amount demanded from them because they know that if they're reluctant to pay for these jobs, there's someone else who would be paying it, right. Um, so, uh, yeah, it's, it's the workers who are bearing these costs,
Marty:Right. So under ethical recruitment that basically gets flipped on its head. Then it's the employer, in most cases, who, in the host country, who will bear all of those costs.
Upasana:Yeah. Right now, from what we're seeing, um, not all employers are covering the costs, right. That passes the burden on workers, but even in instances where employers do cover the costs and fees, recruiters can, uh, charge both the employer and the worker if they're not held accountable, right, because that just means more money for them. So that's one aspect that is important to highlight. Employers bear responsibility of the cost, but sometimes recruiters are cheating even the employers. That's what makes it a little difficult, right, uh, to implement, uh, ethical recruitment in practice. Because if you look at the traditional model the way recruiters have been getting job orders is there's almost like a race to the bottom, right. So, there are over 850, uh, recruiters in Nepal and thousands more in other sending countries like Philippines, Bangladesh, Pakistan, and so on. Um, so one recruiter might, uh, offer to waive the service fees in exchange of a job order. Another might, waive like both the airfare as well as the service fees, right.. That kind of like negative competition has, uh, led us to this situation, right? It's gone so bad that in many instances, instead of covering the costs associated with the recruitment, the employer gets commission, right? And all this is possible because recruiters or, uh, the intermediaries know that they can recoup this cost from the workers. There's also these domestic issues that drive these costs. On paper, we have this policy called the free visa, free ticket policy that prohibits workers from being charged more than 10,000 rupees. So, uh, everyone falsely claims that they're charging workers 10,000 rupees, which is not true at all. One big driver of these recruitment costs is the individual brokers. So recruiters are based in the capital; workers are getting hired from all across Nepal, right, and so they rely on individual, uh, brokers. And, and the migrants also trust these brokers because they're from the same communities. And these brokers have a lot of bargaining power, right. So they can charge workers, they can oversell the jobs, uh, to workers. So they're also like a major driver of these recruitment costs. And that's like one of the things that we're trying to work on, uh, through Migration Lab. We're heavily relying on TikTok to make workers understand that it is possible to migrate without paying such high fees. We encourage these aspirants to directly come in contact with the recruiters and bypass, uh, these individual brokers. But this culture of, uh, paying high fees is so entrenched in our system that workers often associate ethical fee jobs with, uh, like bad outcomes, right. This lack of trust stems from how workers who are paying high fees, um, they don't always get the jobs that they're promised. So in such a scenario, how can, like, someone get a good job when they don't pay any amount, right. We need to work on social media messaging, on awareness programmes, and that's why testimonies of workers really plays a strong role It takes like one cohort of ethically deployed migrants in a community for others to believe it.
Marty:To fill in maybe a question people might have, so, in the traditional current system, let's say, the costs end up mainly on the migrant worker themselves who go and borrow money at very high interest rates, as you pointed out, these big sums that they have to pay back in years and years after they return or while they're away. Under this ethical recruitment system, it's the employer in the host country who will end up, should end up, paying most of those costs. What is it that's driving that employer? Obviously, they're happy if they don't have to pay anything and they just get the workers and they pay them whatever the salary is. What is driving them to accept this new ethical system where up front they have to pay?
Upasana:I wouldn't say it's new, right, because there have been employers who are responsible and who willingly cover these costs. Just to give you a context, there are some ethical recruitment drives that come to Nepal. A lot of them are from Malaysia, and one of the reasons why these ethical drives are coming from Malaysia is, uh, because exports from Malaysia were banned by countries like the US when there was evidence of forced labour And this, um, created, like, a shakeup in, in the industry. For example, uh, during COVID, glove factories were affected by the export ban. And if one glove factory is affected, their competitors also see it as a credible threat. So they also like, um, cleaned up their, uh, hiring policies, right. And, we were the beneficiaries of it because a lot of our workers work in factories in, in Malaysia.
Marty:Okay. So at the moment, do you have an estimate of how many workers have gone or maybe are currently being recruited using this approach?
Upasana:We don't have an estimate of how many workers are benefiting from, uh, ethical recruitment drives. But they are in tens of thousands, right, because a significant number of Malaysian companies have hired workers under ethical models. And these are usually bulk recruitment so the same recruiter might be deploying thousands of workers in one year, ethically. What is concerning for us is that, so Malaysia stopped hiring workers, since I think more than a year, right? They stopped the intake of foreign workers from any country. Um, and the same recruiters who had deployed, thousands of workers ethically, um, their numbers have tanked to less than 100 after Malaysia closed its doors. And so that is quite concerning because it shows how, you know, the appetite for ethical recruitment in the international market is still low. And we need to do a lot more work, uh, to Uh, attract like the best of employers, to diversify to more than one country. Because when these recruiters had deployed workers in the thousands, it sent a pretty strong message, right? They placed among like the top sending recruiters in terms of the number of workers deployed. And that gave a strong message that like there is a business case for ethical recruitment. But then when Malaysia closed its doors, the numbers went down, and it creates again, like this doubt on whether ethical recruitment is sustainable as a business or not.
Marty:Right. And there's no other country on the horizon that might kind of take over from Malaysia, that might start doing more of recruiting this way.
Upasana:It is happening, but in a very scattered individual employer way, right? Saudi Arabia has been awarded the hosting rights for the World Cup. So many of the companies, uh, in Saudi Arabia might recruit ethically, especially on projects that are directly affiliated with the World Cup But overall in all host countries, there are like good employers, right? It's a matter of matching recruiters with those good employers. A big priority for us, if we want to make migration better, is to be able to attract good employers. We seldom talk about who are the employers that are hiring our workers, right? And I think that's a discussion that needs to happen more, because not all employers are the same. There are responsible employers, there are multinational companies that care about, uh, workers, both, like, the recruitment aspect of it, but as well as the workers' welfare and things like that. So, how do we attract the best of employers? And, um, a big focus in our, uh, public narrative is preventing the abuses that, uh, workers face And for us, attracting the best employers would be the best way to prevent these abuses in the first place. And to be able to attract the best of employers, um, we need a good labour mobility industry, we need good ethical recruiters. And, that's what the priority of Migration Lab is: to be able to create this ecosystem of good actors in a responsible recruitment who will promote good practices.
Marty:What I find really interesting about this is how it ties Nepal's migration issues with international issues, right? And you can see that one does not exist without the other. But you might also end up with the thinking that Nepal doesn't have any control over it unless there's the demand from another Malaysia-like situation then there's not going to be a call for workers to be recruited in that way. How would you respond to that? Is that correct, or is that too negative an interpretation?
Upasana:I think it's a bit negative. A lot of the employers also need to be educated on ethical recruitment, uh, practices, and what a long way it can go for workers and their families, right. If they change their business practices, it's not just beneficial for their workers because there are like studies that have shown, the positive, effect of hiring, uh, workers ethically, uh, because it changes, like, employees morale and motivation and so on. And so I think one of the things that we're trying to do, um, at Migration Lab is to humanize these stories, right? So, uh, we've made these videos on ethical recruitment drives, how they're happening in practice, and what impact it has on workers. And so I think the contribution that we can have as a sending country is, 1. To humanize these stories and second, to translate the principles that exist, whether it's the'employer pays' model, how do you implement it in practice right? Because we have a lot of homegrown innovative, um, initiatives that are ongoing because recruiters have to go out of their way to ensure that workers are not being charged. Because it might be the case that some individual agent, uh, charges the worker, or the worker's mindset itself needs to be changed. So there's a lot that's going on in Nepal on the ground, and those need to be brought to light. What we experienced with the UK seasonal scheme is that there were media exposes of workers, uh, being charged exorbitant amounts. And in response, the hiring companies in the UK, uh, pulled out from the Nepal market, and that isn't a good outcome for us. Because over 3,000 workers had benefited from that scheme. So I think, um, a good outcome would have been if the employer either took corrective actions and worked with the same recruiters, whoever they had partnered with, to do the recruitment drive better, or they switched to ethical recruiters who could have conducted the same, uh, recruitment drives in a more responsible way. That's like the niche that we found at Migration Lab where we need to spotlight the good practices that are ongoing, and to promote good migration, which is very different from promoting any migration.
Marty:Okay So, traditionally, labour migrants have gone, besides India, of course they've gone to Gulf countries and Malaysia. Those are the, I think, the two biggest recipients of Nepali workers. Can we do this ethical approach to other countries? Now, migrants are going to so many other countries, Eastern Asia, and especially Europe as well now, and of course North America. Will it work in those countries also?
Upasana:So I think it largely depends on the employers hiring workers, regardless of the location. But, but it's also equally important to caveat that recruitment cost is not the sole determinant of a migration outcome, right? An example that I use quite frequently is that of the Korea EPS model. it's a very highly sought after destination, Korea, and in my opinion, even though it has some problems, it is one of the best bilateral labour mobility programmes there is. But workers do pay to go to Korea. I think they pay around 60, 000 to 70, 000, I forget the exact amount. But why it's not as big an issue in this corridor is because all workers pay the exact same amount. It's very transparent. They know exactly what they're paying for, right? And the other is it's guaranteed that they'll recuperate this cost within, like a month of their employment. I think it takes around two weeks of wages to be able to, um, recuperate that amount. And that kind of transparency and predictability doesn't exist in other markets. And that's why it's a problem elsewhere. So I think recruitment cost is a problem, um, but it's not the only problem. There are many other factors that determine a migration outcome. And we do need to look at recruitment fees in their equivalence to wages, So, paying a thousand dollars to go to Malaysia for a job that pays three hundred dollars is different from paying a thousand dollars to go to, uh, you know, Japan for wages that are above two thousand dollars, for example. We need to think of it in a broader context than just absolute terms. I think the over emphasis on fee-free migration when the international market isn't ready for it might have some negative impact. For example, right now workers are paying recruitment fees, but one of the factors that drives up these fees is also the informal interest rates that they're paying 36 usually, but I've spoken to workers who've paid as much as 60%. And if we only focus on fee-free migration, then we won't be having discussions around how to make these costs more affordable, right? So, there might be formal low interest loans that migrants could have had access to if we open up the discussions for that. I know the government is considering it, but this is also like the kinds of discussion we need to have in the context of, like Korea, for example, where learning the language, coming to the city and studying for the exams might entail a lot of, uh, costs and that might not be affordable for some of the poorest communities. In that regard, I think it's also important to talk about, uh, financing options for migrants so that they're able to benefit from migration opportunities that are the most rewarding.
Marty:Yeah, that definitely makes sense. And following up on that a lot of this conversation has been about money. right. And obviously that's so very important, especially when migrant workers are forced to come up with, in the traditional model, so much money to just get a job, a simple job, right, to try and feed their families. But beyond the benefit of, under ethical migration, not having to pay that money, are there other benefits as well that you've seen through the work you've been doing up until now?
Upasana:Yeah, for sure. When we engage with migrants who've paid heavy fees, like their sole priority when they migrate is to repay these loans And even when workers pay a lot of money on the traditional models, it's usually not guaranteed that they'll get the job that they're promised, right? So there's so much uncertainty that they're traveling under. In the case of ethical recruitment, like I said, it's not just about the cost. Uh, you, you will get the job that you're promised and so on And even if things didn't go as planned and if they had to return prematurely, the good thing is they won't. be coming back to debts, right. They'll at least not be worse off than before they migrated. And that's a good thing. One of the aspects that we've taken advantage of is it lets us think about how to make migration accessible to people who otherwise don't have access to migration, right? For example, Jajarkot, uh, migration from Jajarkot, even without the earthquake is still complicated than for someone like who's migrating from near Kathmandu. And so that way, I think, it lets us address this problem of making migration accessible to the poorest, because those are the people who could benefit the most from these jobs. That's one, um, aspect. The other is, it allows us to discuss, uh, migration as an opportunity and not a problem. Before workers depart, we have these, um, discussions at Migration Lab where we focus a lot on upward mobility. So when you don't have this heavy recruitment debt. weighing on you, you can plan better for your migration, right? So it, it frees up the mental space to think about your vision for migrating what your long-term goals are, and how to maximize, this opportunity. We've partnered with Nepali Times on this series called the Diaspora Diaries series, where we cover stories of migrants who, went on, uh, low wage positions, but they climbed the ladder, and have made it to like managerial positions, supervisor positions and so on. And also like returnees who are running successful businesses in Nepal. We've spoken to them about their journeys and what are the factors that led to their success, and using those as, um, talking points like it, it allows us to discuss with migrants how they can learn from these experiences and how they can take advantage of these things because a lot of the migrants who didn't have these discussions, they were like figuring it out as they went. Whereas with the new aspirants, we can talk about things like networking and taking advantage of cross training programmes how you can Increase the likelihood of getting promoted and so on. Initially, when we start these discussions, we ask this basic question why are you migrating? It's usually compulsion. And I think that has a lot to do with this negative perception we have of migration. But then once we start, um, talking about these positive aspects of migration, the vibe changes. And since this discussion happens right before the departure. Um, it's sort of like changes the way they look at the, at what they aim to make out of this migration experience. So whether it is what they plan to do after they return or what they plan to achieve while they're overseas, I think these are like positive discussions that we should be having, uh, which we currently aren't. I think it would be a little difficult to have the same conversation with migrants who are like heavily in debt. Because their core mission would be to somehow pay off their loans.
Marty:That's so interesting it completely switches the outlook on migration, right. At least there's one thing or a couple of things that you can focus on that are forward looking and that can be very positive. Other than, like, worrying about someone contacting you while you're working about the money. And you hear so many stories about migrants who have to take double shifts and triple shifts to try to earn more and more and more.
Upasana:I think even, uh, if we were able to achieve a certain level of transparency at least you are getting what you're paying for. Because you make the decision of paying or not paying, right? I think even transparency to a certain extent and discipline in how much workers are being charged. Right now, there's absolutely no discipline. You might be paying 3,000 for the same job and someone else might be paying 5,000. Yeah, does provide big relief to migrant workers. But I think, again, like I said earlier, it's not just about the cost. Having a more transparent recruitment system, where workers do get the jobs that they're promised, would go a long way. We need a strong labour mobility industry that is able to attract the best of employers. And for us to be able to do that, the recruiters here need to adopt good practices, need to abide by internationally recognized ethical recruitment practices.
Marty:Okay, that's great. like that positive kind of end to the conversation, so let's leave it there for now. As we said, there's so much more we could talk about, about migration, and about the work you're doing, but I think that's a great introduction. It was nice to meet you and have this conversation, and let's do it again sometime.
Upasana:Yeah, sounds great. Thank you, Marty, for having me.
Marty:Thanks. Bye bye. Thanks again to Upasana Khadka for coming on the show. You wouldn't have guessed it, but this is the first time she has overcome her nerves to speak on a podcast. So I feel honored that she chose Nepal Now. I want to give another shout out, to Prem Awasthi. He was the first guest of Nepal Now in 2024 when we shifted our focus to migration, and was also the first listener to subscribe to the show. If you're curious about subscribing, click on the Support the Show link under Resources in the show notes, wherever you're listening to this. There you can choose from various amounts of monthly support starting at three dollars. The money will go first to paying our costs for hosting and editing the show. If you have any questions or comments about this or any episode, you can give feedback by clicking on the Send Us a Message link at the very top of our show notes. You can also message NepalNow on social, we're at NepalNowPod on Instagram, LinkedIn, and Facebook, or email me at nepalnowpod(at)gmail.com. I'll talk to you next time.
