Nepal Now: On the Move
We're talking with the people migrating from, to, and within this Himalayan country located between China and India. You'll hear from a wide range of Nepali men and women who have chosen to leave the country for better work or education opportunities. Their stories will help you understand what drives people — in Nepal and worldwide — to mortgage their property or borrow huge sums of money to go abroad, often leaving their loved ones behind.
Despite many predictions, migration from Nepal has not slowed in recent years, except briefly during the height of the Covid-19 pandemic. About 1 million Nepalis leave every year to work at jobs outside the country. Tens of thousands go abroad to study. Far fewer return to Nepal to settle. The money ('remittances') that workers send home to their families accounts for 25% of the country's GDP, but migration impacts Nepal in many other ways. We'll be learning from migrants, experts and others about the many cultural, social, economic and political impacts of migration.
Your host is Marty Logan, a Canadian journalist who has lived in Nepal's capital Kathmandu off and on since 2005. Marty started the show in 2020 as Nepal Now.
Nepal Now: On the Move
On the move from Kathmandu to Kabul: 2024's top episode
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Hi everyone. Today we’re replaying our most popular episode of the year. Like every migration story, it is a unique one. Prem Awasthi moved to Kabul, the capital of Afghanistan, almost exactly one year ago to start a new job with the United Nations. We talked with him just hours before his plane left Kathmandu, to hear his expectations of this new stage in his life, and the life of his family.
Welcome to Nepal Now: On the Move. My name is Marty Logan. This is the podcast that talks to some of the hundreds of thousands of people migrating from — and sometimes to — this small country surrounded by global giants China and India. Months later we reach out again to find out if reality in their new, temporary, home is meeting expectations. Occasionally we call in an expert to try and better understand all of this movement.
Not only did we talk with Prem Awasthi before he left Nepal, we caught up with him six months later to see how his new life compared to what he imagined before leaving. What struck me most about our second conversation was his feeling that already his roots to his homeland were getting shallower.
Thank you to everyone who listened in 2024. Focusing solely on one issue – migration – was something new for Nepal Now, so I hope you enjoyed that approach. Whether you did, or didn’t, you can send a comment or an idea for a future episode by clicking on the link at the top of these show notes. Message Nepal Now on social – we’re @nepalnowpod on Instagram, LinkedIn and Facebook. You can also email me at nepalnowpod(at)gmail.com.
I’ll talk to you next time.
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Thank you to Himal Media in Patan Dhoka for the use of their studio.
Hi, everyone. Today we're replaying our most popular episode of the year. Like every migration story, it is a unique one. Prem Awasti moved to Kabul, the capital of Afghanistan, almost exactly one year ago to start a new job with the United Nations. We talked with him just hours before his plane left Kathmandu to hear his expectations of this new stage in his life and the life of his family. Welcome to Nepal, now on the move. My name is Marty Logan. This is the podcast that talks to some of the hundreds of thousands of people migrating from, and sometimes to this small country surrounded by global giants, China and India. Months later, we reach out again to find out if reality in their new temporary home is meeting expectations. Occasionally, we call in an expert to try and better understand all of this movement. Not only did we talk with Prem Aasti before he left Nepal, we caught up with him six months later to see how his new life compared to what he imagined before leaving. What struck me most about our second conversation was his feeling that already his roots to his homeland were getting shallower. Please listen now to my first chat with Pramaasti. I've put the link to part two in the notes to this episode. To jump right in. today we're speaking with Prem Aasti. Prem worked for the United nations in Nepal for 18 years, dealing with the growing number of humanitarian emergencies in the country. In December 2023, he moved to Kabul, the capital of Afghanistan. I caught up with him just hours before his flight left Kathmandu. We talked about the many practicalities of. Going, as well as why he was. Leaving and if it's a good thing. That so many people are migrating from Nepal. Take a listen now to our chat. Prem Awasti. Uh, welcome to the podcast.
>> Prem Awasti:Thank you. Thank you, Marty. It's pleasure and I'm really pleased to talk with you.
>> Marty:Great. I'm happy you came. Uh, as we'll talk about later, you're very busy, especially today, so I really appreciate, uh, you coming. So we've just met a few days back. Um, so I'm doubly happy that you were able to make time today. And I really don't know much about you except what we talked about the other day, which was very much focused on the earthquake and what happened after the earthquakeaking asz a quote. But for this today, uh, just tell me a little bit about your background, like where you're from in Nepal, where you went to school, that kind of thing.
>> Prem Awasti:Thank you, Marty. Actually, I was reflecting when you were asking question. Uh, my life is on move and my journey began almost uh, 30 years ago when I left uh, my village in Doti Sudarpaschim (Far West) once it used to be very prosperous, that's we've been told. But currently, you know, it's very remote, isolated area. My schooling was uh, from Doti so I did my SLC which is 10th grade from Doti. I was grown up, brought up uh, in Doti and during my initial days for grade 12 maybe I walking more than two hours just to make uh, one way, two hours to commute the school. And then I moved uh, to Bhairahawa for my intermediate schooling and then from there to Chitwan I did my bachelor's. So since then I'm like uh, migrating here and there. So it's been more than 18 years that I worked with un, uh in a humanitarian, in a development setting. So that's briefly about myself.
>> Marty:Okay, yeah. So it sounds like you've been on the move a long time and your family is still some of them in Doty or everyone has left.
>> Prem Awasti:Some of my childhood friends, they are still in Doty. My immediate family, my parents, my brothers all day left as like a lot of population are on move. Moving from hill to Tarran is quite normal, uh, over the last 30, 40 years.
>> Marty:Yeah, yeah. Just for curiosity because I've been through Doi on my way to Atam. I remember driving through there and I thought it was very beautiful. Like so many parts of Nepal. Is your village close to the road or is it a long way off that main highway?
>> Prem Awasti:It's close to road. I mean now there is a bridge. It's like uh, 10, 15 minutes walk from a road earlier. It used to be like, you know, this side was road, another side was my trail. But it's really beautiful along the river valley and stunning. That is the most beautiful uh, place, uh, always in my heart and mind.
>> Marty:Yeahah, of course. Home is home, right? Home will always be home no matter where you are.
>> Prem Awasti:Sure, absolutely.
>> Marty:I agree, I agree. Uh, okay, so then to today. You said now 18 years you've been working with the UN and this links to why I met you the other day. We were talking about uh, the recent earthquake centred in Zazrot and then the uh, response to the earthquake by the various 'A huge section of Nepali and international society, including obviously the UN and these other big organisations. And so your role in that and in terms of other emergencies is very important. So you're in the human. Well, you explain it.
>> Prem Awasti:Yeah, I mean, uh, it was important, uh, quite important. Demanding and challenging tasks that uh, I had to Perform, uh, with UN in Nepal, uh, mainly coordinating with different actors, mostly the international actor, which includes Red Cross movement, um, uh, international NGOs, uh, different UN organisation. Uh, UN is a big family. There are different like ah, sectorral specific organisation. And another tax was interfacing with government. So regularly on behalf of senior UN official, interfacing, communicating with the government and also sitting day in, day out with the government, planning on the response and before, um, you know, any emergency, working, um, on a daily basis on emergency preparedness part. So it includes different layer of government, particularly the provincial and the federal government. And within a federal government there are different entities. Um, so this was my tax, um, mainly with the UN and Nepal.
>> Marty:Okay. And I think it's fairly clear that now there are more events, emergency kind of events, a lot of them related to climate and weather. Right. More regularly we seem to be hearing about landslides or seeing landslides, flooding. Uh, I guess the earthquakes are a different type of emergency. Were you busier as the years went by in terms of response or.
>> Prem Awasti:Absolutely. I mean the cold is getting intense even it's for limited period and heat is getting intense, which was not that, you know, major hazard in past those season used to be like sort of down. Uh, and monsoon has always uh, been most hazardous, particularly up in the hill. Um, you may have seen uh, everywhere road construction even, you know, not proper engineering or indigenousologies. So that has also significantly contributed. So yeah, in terms of different natural hazards and responding to the humanitarian consequences throughout the year, it's been quite busy. I mean it depends on the scale and magnitude. But um, there is always something hazardous events across the country.
>> Marty:Right. Okay. And so we're not going to talk too much more about your job because we're talking more about your life. But one other question that I think kind of links, or in my mind when I imagine this conversation links, uh, the work and what you're doing personally is with all of these events, did you find that people within Nepal are also moving? People who are affected by an earthquake or by flooding or whatever, are they likely to pick up and move? Or is it almost always just a temporary displacement?
>> Prem Awasti:People are on the move. Let me give you one example. I was in Bhojpur District, Arun Gamala. It was back in 2017. I asked newly elected CHE chairperson what is the main problem? And uh, the CHE chair person was saying the invasion of monkeys is a problem because uh, the forest coverage increased because people were not growing. There were a lot of bushes and people were on a move. So that kind of uh, you know, villages becoming empty is seen across the country. And even um, through my eyes, uh, I have seen lot of uh, people moving to either uh, in urban area, in the hills or moving down to Tarai So it's amazing if you see the number of people moving, uh, it depends. Once they have like certain amount of money that they can at least rent out or buy piece of land, uh, they usually choose to move, uh, because of uh, different reason for education or for aspiration of better life or you know, for employment. So there are different reasons. But um, internal migration, uh, is a major kind of phenomena and so is um, you know, like labour migration and other migration that uh, we see every day.
>> Marty:Yeah, yeah, definitely. I've heard so much of this um, recently. I mean the amount of people talking about moving, all sorts of movement is growing and growing and that's why we're talking right now, today. And okay, so now you, you're also moving after 18 years at the UN and you're moving. So where are you going and when are you going?
>> Prem Awasti:Actually I am travelling tonight after a few few hours.
>> Marty:Very last minute, last minute.
>> Prem Awasti:But uh, pleased to talk with you. And I mean migration is quite uh, interesting and we all are migrant in one way or other. And it's good. I mean I recall my first time when I left my village. I was always curious person. So everything was new for me. Even tree, plant, landscape, you know, even in a same district. Travelling from one village to another was fascinating. I was so amazed to see. And when I came to Tarai (plains region) first time, seeing flat land everywhere was incredible. I can't explain my feeling. I think why I should write one day. And then, you know, when I came first time in Kathmandu again, it was. Everything was new for me. And then I travele abroad so many things where new culture, people, and I'm always uh, curious to learn. And travel is a great form of learning. So through travel you can learn about food, culture, geography, history, different thing. So I'm moving to Kabul uh, tonight. Um, so I will be there at least for a year working with UN and I'm interested to learn and also you know, uh, for the greater humanity for good cause I want to use my skill, knowledge, ability. So it's like um, mutual benefit, you know. So my skills are also used and importantly I also get to learn a lot of things. Um, and maybe it will expand my horizon. Uh, I'm sure that working uh, in my society, speaking same language, you know, eating food that I ate from childhood and then going into the completely New context is, uh, definitely that will give me a good, good horizon, new insight. Uh, so I'm m really excited.
>> Marty:Okay. That's a huge move. I mean, it's South Asia still. Um, so in a sense, geographically it's not that far. But it is far in so many ways. Right. I mean, obviously Kabul is uh, a place that's having a lot of difficulties in terms of governance, in terms of human rights, etter, etc. There are food issues, uh, humanitarian issues, obviously. And it's also a fascinating place. It's at the crossroads of so many civilizations and its history is, uh, you know, even going back beyond the recent history of the 21st and 20th centuries. It's so interesting in terms of the people who have lived there. And uh, it's a place I would love to visit one day for sure. Was it hard to make a decision to go to Kabul? I mean, are you worried about also going to Kabil? Or for you, is it much more of a positive than a negative?
>> Prem Awasti:Uh, I mean, overall I was positive, but transition is not, uh, easy. It's always difficult. You know, transitioning from comfort zone to something you new. Uh, there are a lot of know, like a different feeling, uh, doubts perhaps. And uh, I was working in a very comfort zone, close to family, uh, close to friends. Um, and going into there was some, you know, mixed feeling. Um, but overall I was positive because, you know, the incentive was um, at least contributing at the global, um, or regional. I feel proud myself that I got this opportunity, um, not only to serve my country or, you know, the society I born in, but, um, you know, at least using my skill set at the regional global level, which is really a uh, proud moment for me. So that was number one motivation and another was learning. Definitely reading booki is one sort of learning. But experiencing feeling is uh, really a good, good learning, which I believe in. And my learning curve is also feeling touching. Um, so with that, uh, I can expand my horizon still. You know, I have to manage transition. Not, uh, easy decision, I would say, but a, uh, decision that I need to take.
>> Marty:Okay, so I want to ask you more about what exactly you'll be doing when you get there. But first. So you mentioned family. Are you going with family or you're going alone? And then how difficult is, obviously even if you're going with family, you can't go with all your family. So how difficult is it to leave your family? Uh, what are they saying about you moving?
>> Prem Awasti:I'm going alone. Um, I have a two daughters, wife, uh, we live together Here in Kathmandu Valley. So not easy decision uh because I will be missing them. But yeah I will be often visiting every four to six weeks. Um, I will be coming back to visit family, spend some time. Ultimately we have to take a decision whether at household level or in a career or you know in a bigger society level. So yeah, sometimes tough decision, sometime kind of uh, very easy decision. And yeah uh, it was quite tough uh like a Catch-22 situation. Uh one way. I mean my passion was like um, you know to contribute at the larger scale and also to explore which was a good, good opportunity. And after working um, almost more than 18 years also it was time for me to look into what is ah beyond the national boundary. And one way like um, movie is good and another like reconciling with the situation and accommodating with uh it so family been quite adaptive. Really grateful uh with that and also yeah even it was tough. I have to take a decision.
>> Marty:Yeah, it's never easy to leave people behind. Right? I mean as much as you look forward to what's coming and that part will be exciting and new and all of that, it's never something you want to do. Leaving people behind for sure. So when you get there, what exactly will you be doing? What's your role?
>> Prem Awasti:My role will be coordination. Um, I had uh, skill and also expertise which I developed over almost a decade here in Nepal. Over the last few years I was mostly focused on humanitarian. But there it will be more peace, uh building, um, also navigating through the political process. There is a big uh, un uh mission there. So I will be working with a different uh section within that mission. Um so bringing everyone together is um, is my job there. So it's um, monitoring, uh, evaluation, planning, coordination. So these are the main functions that I will be performing there.
>> Marty:Obviously you know the recent history of Afghanistan and how difficult things have been for decades now. So uh, if you're working on peace in Afghanistan it won't be easy obviously. Although now there is no large scale conflict but with that government there which is not even internationally recognised as a government by many entities. Right. Um, it's a very kind of fragile, sensitive situation and I guess more political than what you've been doing. How do you feel about that side of it? It's not so much a practical logistical challenge. Much more kind of a governance, political kind of role.
>> Prem Awasti:No, yeah, no, I mean you are right. But um, my job, I um, will get to know exactly what I will be doing on a day to day basis based on my you know, as of now I'm prepared mostly for the coordination like you know, acting as a glue and uh, bringing all pieces together. Uh, so that kind of role, uh, I think on a peace building or political or humanitarian there will be um, experts there. So I don't. I uh, think uh, be providing the exptise services per say on a peace building and other. But m. My role will be a planning official there. So you know, bringing all together and having more coherence and coordinated uh, element in planning, uh, in the monitoring, um, in evaluation. So that will be my role. I will get uh, to know and yeah, it will be a good learning opportunity for me also in a frazile uh, context how the governance, how the peaceu building part, which is quite important and also uh, most challenging. I mean if we see the recent history there. So it will be kind of a good learning for me. Perhaps we can talk when I have a good experience, uh, from there.
>> Marty:I hope so. Yeah, I'm hoping we can actually talk before that. Maybe after a month when you're there just to cheque in and see how things are going. Obviously you'll still be as they say, finding your feet, um, and getting settled. So you'll be based in Kabul. Will you get to travel, do you know?
>> Prem Awasti:Uh, I will be based in Kabul. Um, I think I will travel. There are different, uh, UN mission field office. So at least I'll be travelling. Uh, but not extensive field travel that I used to do in Nepal. In Nepal I travelled um, 74 districts. Out of 77, only Manang, Mustang and that'sul are remaining.
>> Marty:Well, you're coming back every four to six weeks. You can cheque them out, but I'm sure you will sometime in your life get to those three. You haven't been to Afghanistan before?
>> Prem Awasti:No, I never. This is my first time. I'm excited.
>> Marty:Yeah, yeah. Uh, no doubt, no doubt. Like I said, it's a place I'd really like to visit and maybe one day. So you contributed a lot to Nepal, right? You were in a role where you were working for Nepal. Obviously there are lots of things to do here as there are in every country. But certainly in Nepal there's lots of work to do in terms of preparedness which was your focus up until now. And then in terms of so called development, uh, there's a lot to do. Do you feel like you might also.
>> Prem Awasti:Working there in a humanitarian field? Uh, so I thought that I should come back um, and at least uh, be with people whenever there is a need. Definitely. I will Come back and whatever I can contribute, I'm always happy to contribute. So I don't have a long term project, uh, mob being out of country.
>> Marty:Right? O. Okay. Yeah. That was a huge event in the country's history, right?
>> Prem Awasti:Yeah.
>> Marty:And you had the skills to contribute. So I can see how it pulled you back. How do you feel about. I mean again the reason we're talking now is really about migration and particularly about out migration. And there are some people going out, coming back, but that number is much, much smaller than the people leaving. And so you talk about wanting to see other cultures and live. Not just see, not just be a visitor but live other cultures and be a global citizen and you can contribute in other places in different ways. So does that mean when you look at Nepal overall and the migration that's happening now, do you see it as like a natural part of Nepal's progression and development? There are some people who would look at it and uh, there are some people who look at it and say oh my God, so many people are leaving. The country's losing its best resources. What are we going to do? How do you feel about that? How would you react to that kind of statement now that you're one of.
>> Prem Awasti:The people going no, I see it as positive, uh, phenomena. The reference point is my own life. When I was child, very few people used to visit Kathpandu and they used to say going to Nepal. So it was like uh, maybe people walk like uh two days to Dhangadi. From Dhangadi travelling across the border, taking train, either coming to Biranss or Nepalans because there was no breeze, uh over Knali River. We have our own dialect, uh, Doteli. I never heard Nepali during that time. Right. Like 40 years ago. And then if you see now lot of Nepali, you know, Nepali speaking even in a village, you know, there is now less um, kind of decreasing trend of people going to seasonal uh, labour migration to India. Even for treatment. They come to Kathmandu So there is this, you know, integration um, with on country. Earlier it was quite isolated, you know, exposure. Migration. Moving uh, from one place to another is exposure. You know, even um. It may promote, uh. It usually promote humanity, connecting with other human beings, uh, looking things differently. If I look my now daughter, her exposure, I mean through textbook or through television or Internet, even meeting different culture in school. So they see it as completely normal thing. But for me back then even coming across uh, another culture was shock. So yeah, migration is positive. Uh, if you see from a development side, from whole human uh, development Part exposure knowledge, uh, broadly humanity, promoting humanity and, um, you know, connecting with other human beings is quite positive. Definitely. It has another side on a labour on the skill set. How we deal with migration is important, but, um, yeah, we should promote migration.
>> Marty:Okay, well, thanks again for taking the time today when you're so busy and you're on the cusp of making a big move. I hope that all goes well. Your actual move there and then, uh, finding your feet once you get there. And like I said, let's stay in touch and have a chat soon after you're there. And I'm sure you know this will be a plus for Afghanistan and a plus for you personally. So, yeah, I'm really looking forward to hearing what you find there and what you learn there. I'm sure they'll miss you here in Nepal, but like you said, there's lot, lots of work to be done and you'll still be contributing. So thanks again.
>> Prem Awasti:Thank you very much. Um, very pleased to be with you and lot of, um, reflection for me as well. This conversation has been quite rich.
>> Marty:I hope you enjoyed our chat with Premaesti. I would like to have a new episode for you before the end of the year, but I'm in Canada dealing with family affairs, so I'm not sure that will happen. In any case, thank you to everyone who listened. In 2024, focusing solely on one issue, migration was something new for Nepal now, so I hope you enjoyed that approach. Whether you did or didn't. You can send a comment or an idea for a future episode by clicking on the link at the top of our show notes. You can message Nepal now on social. We're at Nepal now, uh, pod on Instagram, LinkedIn and Facebook. You can also email me@nepalnowpodmail.com I'll talk to you next time.
